Thread: Richard Thomas Collins

Can anyone help me with my ‘brick wall’? I have traced my Collins family tree back to Richard Thomas Collins who gave his age on the 1851 census for Kingston upon Thames as 22 and states he was born in London. On the 1861 census he was more helpful, giving his age as 33 and stating he was born in Middlesex, St. Giles. He died in the Kingston Workhouse that same year (17th June 1861) attended by Mary Grose whom I assume to be his mother, remarried, as she is also shown on the censuses as the wife of Richard Grose who describes Richard Collins as his ‘son-in-law’ which I take to mean stepson in today’s terminology. I have not been able to trace a marriage between Mary Collins and Richard Grose; does this mean they were never actually married and what could be the reason for this – was her first husband still alive, for instance?
I have Richard Thomas Collins’ marriage certificate. He married Harriett Fielder at St John’s Church, Waterloo, Lambeth, Surrey on 4th May 1852. Richard Thomas stated his father was Richard Collins, ‘Gentleman’.
I have not been able to trace with any certainty Richard Thomas Collins’ birth; I have searched in the LMA for any likely births between 1828-1830 in St Giles, Ickenham; St Giles in the Fields; St George the Martyr and St George, Bloomsbury – no trace. The only likely birth that I have found is one at The British Lying-in Hospital when Mary Collins, wife of Richard Collins, gave birth to Richard Collins on 23 Jan 1829. I have seen the original records of this birth at TNA and also an earlier stillbirth of a daughter on 19th Oct 1827. The British Lying-in Hospital catered for the ‘distressed poor (married women only) with special attention to the wives of soldiers and sailors’ yet Richard Collins’ occupation was given as ‘Merchants Clerk’ and ‘Clerk’ – could he have become a ‘Gentleman’ by the time of his son’s marriage in 1852? Also, Mary Collins’ settlement is given as Sherborne, Dorset, which means, as I understand it, that her husband’s place of settlement is Sherborne. Richard and Mary Grose gave their birthplace as Bristol on the censuses (not that close, I know, but in the general direction!)
There is a marriage between Richard Collins and Mary Thomas at Christ Church, Greyfriars, Newgate on 1st Sept 1827 – is this why Richard is Richard Thomas Collins?
Richard and Mary Grose are in Kingston upon Thames on the 1841 census without Richard Thomas; where could he have been age 12? There are no obvious candidates elsewhere on the census.
As you can see, I have considered a number of angles, including whether Richard Collins, Gentleman, is fictitious as I am aware that a lot of illegitimate children did this, but I can find no trace of a birth with just Mary Collins as mother to Richard Collins.
Any help or suggestions would be gratefully received as this has been a puzzle to me for many years.

Hi,

First of all go with what you have.
Having traced back correctly you now have Richard Thomas ' marriage to Harriet Fielder . I have found that occasionally folk lie on marriage certs. Ag labs become farmers and non existent fathers become gentlemen! On the other hand... yes a merchant's clerk could become a gentleman.
Just because you haven't found the Collins /Grosse marriage doesn't mean there wasn't one.
Keep looking.
Are there any Collins baptisms at St Giles Middlesex or at Christ church Newgate with parents Richard and Mary Collins that would fit dates for being siblings of your Richard Thomas Collins? Often first and second children were born/baptised in the place of parents marriage. The marriage at Newgate looks promising but without proof it is all assumption.
I will have a look round and see if I can find anything.....
Regards
Lola5

Hi Lola,
Thanks for getting back to me with your suggestions. Part of the reason I thought the marriage looked promising (as well as the mother's surname, Thomas) was that it took place 2 months prior to the birth of the stillborn daughter in the lying in hospital and this was often the case, wasn't it? Also, there are no other siblings on the census returns although, of course, if they were older than Richard, they could very well have moved away completely. I have not been able to establish exactly where Richard was in 1841; his mother appears as the wife of Richard Grose, but not with Richard. I thought he may have been an apprentice carpenter somewhere as this was his later trade.
The only other clue I have is that a Richard Collins, age 12, is shown on the 1841 census at St James, Clerkenwell, Finsbury. The address is Pleasant Row but I initially dismissed this entry because he is shown along with a William Collins. I haven't been able to figure out what sort of establishment he was in, it must have been a school or something as there appear to be a lot of teenage boys at the address. Anyhow, someone on another forum pointed out to me that there was a Harriett Fielder, age 20, on the 1841 census for St Mary Islington, Finsbury, also Pleasant Row - could Pleasant Row have encompassed two parishes in the borough of Finsbury? I have tried to look on old maps but haven't found one that shows the roads and the boroughs they were in. Back to Richard and Harriett.....when they married in 1852, Richard Thomas was age 23 and Harriett Fielder was 30 - approximately the same age gap - coincidence or what?
I'll keep digging, let me know if you come up with anything and thanks again. Regards, Gill

Hi again Gill,
I have been on a journey... from looking for your Richard Grose to Grose families in Cornwall and thence to links with my Cornish daughter in law's family and even a distant link to one of my Suffolk Families.....amazing!
Back to yours... no luck at all with Mary Collins. I think she may well be the one you have found (marriage) and then the births at the Lying Inn Hospital, Endell St. Holborn.(baptism 28 Jan 1829)(But no proof yet)
I can't fathom the Bristol bit. On 1841 it gives Y for born in Surrey. Then 1851(mistranscribed as George for Grose) they give birthplace as Bristol Maybe both Mary Thomas and Richard Collins came from Somerset? Did you find Richard Collins death?
That might be your Richard on the 1841 with older brother/cousin William . Richard's age is 14 there but 1841 wasn't always spot on with ages. They were with the shopman in Lambeth as helpers but That may have been a temporary thing. (Missed it being a school will look again.) I cannot see another Richard Collins who would fit. Finsbury may well have spread over two parishes. Reg district was Barnet. I will take a look.
As to marriage of Richard Grose and Mary Collins ...no luck. Several I thought might be him but wrong spsouses. An 1832 marriage in St Pancras church Camden seemed hopeful but it was to an Elizabeth Pye!
Richard T Collins died Kingston 1861. How did you find his children since he was married and widowed between censuses?
You get coincidences.... or something other...often when researching.
I will keep looking and let you know if I find anything .
Regards
Lola

Hi Lola,
I noticed that there were lots of Grose's in Cornwall, what a coincidence you having one in your family too. Re the Bristol bit, Mary stated she was born in Bristol on the 1861 and 1871 census also (after Richard Grose's death in 1867 which gave his age as 58) but then in 1881 stated she was born in Kingston (perhaps a bit befuddled by then?) She died 1886 in the Kingston workhouse. I have never found a death for a Richard Collins (senior)that I could authenticate but there are a couple of possibilities on familysearch: burial 20 Nov 1837 St Giles in the Fields (but doesn't state the age) and another in Bristol on 22 Oct 1837 (but this gives his age as 30 and would mean he was around 22 when Richard Thomas was born. Richard Thomas died on 17th June 1861 in the Kingston Workhouse age 33, Mary Grose was present at the death. Richard Thomas is shown (just in time, otherwise I might have lost him) on the 1861 census with his 8 year old son Richard F who was my great grandfather; his wife had already died by then (1855) - looks like they gave each other TB.
Is there another likely Richard Collins age 14 in Lambeth (not Finsbury?). I'll look that one up - did it say the boys all worked in a shop?
Looking forward to the next instalment (hopefully!). Regards, Gill

Hi Gill,
Did you know there were Richard Collins' with wives named Mary having sons called Richard Thomas Collins in Bristol(and other places) in the 1600's?
It's a wonder you found yours at all!
1841 census Lambeth. Not a school.(which one was the one with the school?). William Collins 20(/bap of a William Collins 16 Dec 1821 St Dunstans Stepney Middx, parents Thomas Collins and Mary) and Richard Collins 14 both shop lads working and living with Wm. Smith 54 a shopman(born Lambeth Surrey). Boys not born Surrey.
Further up the same road (New Cut South) are JOhn Thomas 71 furniture? , wife Mary 73 and William Thomas 32. Are these any connection? I think both Richard Collins and Mary Thomas were born in Bristol and went to London.
Must look again on 1861 .Kingston. I did not see Richards son aged 8. Have several possible baptisms for Mary in Bristol.
Back later.

Hi Lola,
I've seen the one on familysearch in 1830 but the 1851 census shows a birthplace of London for Richard Thomas and he is then more specific in 1861 - St Giles Middx. - I think it is unlikely he would have been so explicit if it had not been the case, especially as his mother stated she was born in Bristol. I think you may well be right though; a likely scenario is that they were both born in Bristol or surrounds, moved up to London, moved back again when things didn't go right and Richard Collins (senior) then died leaving Mary free to hook up with Richard Grose, or he died in London and Mary went back to her home town of Bristol. I've been looking at Bristol and the Irish (there is supposedly a connection according to a distant cousin with whom I have been in touch and Collins is an Irish name) and it seems that many Irish people went to Bristol and there is a thriving Irish community there still, so its not that far fetched. Another thing, and I'm a bit confused about this so I hope you can help, the birth that I found on family search at St Giles was in the 'Non-Conformist' records and there was a burial also for Richard Collins in St Giles in the Fields in 1837 in the Non-Conformist Record Indexes - is it possible the family were Catholics (the Irish connection again)? Also, do you know of any way I can find out the age of the Richard Collins buried in 1837 without getting the certificate - I've bought one before and it turned out to be an infant so I'm reluctant to speculate unless I have to. Another thing; what do you make of the fact that the Mary Collins who gave birth in the lying-in-hospital, age 26, gave her 'settlement' as Sherbourne, Dorset - that doesn't seem to tie up with the Bristol connection does it?
Let me know what you think,
Gill

Firstly a correction. It is of course Finchley in Barnet reg. dist. not Finsbury . Senior moment!
Did you know Richard and Harriet had another son baptised All Saints Kingston. John WALLACE Collins(son of Richard Thomas Collins, a carpenter of Kingston and Harriet, born May 31st and bap Oct 11th 1854.
Where was he on 1861 census? Did he die? and why Wallace?
Found the 1841 you mentioned Pleasant Row , St James Clerkenwell. It gives no indication of what all those boys were doing there. No schoolmasters or domestic staff. No occupations given for the boys... neither pupil or inmate. Was it a sort of hostel for working/homeless boys?
I do not know how you have unearthed as much as you have because there are so many Collins and all named the same. Both Collins and Fielder in London and in Kingston. Could Harriet have been born Kingston? There is a baptism that fits.
No doubt whatsoever(in my mind) that Tom Collins or whoever came from the Emerald isle. Yes I agree with RTC born in St Giles Middx.
I have traced them forward to 1901 and no clues in later names... Cecil was fashionable in 1890's.(No Marys)
I am not convinced that yours are the Lying in Endell St births. Sherbourne? Now there is a Mary T.homas bap in Melcombe Regis Dorset who fits quite nicely. I will check where she went.
Have you looked on Richmond burial site(it took in Kingston etc) for burials. It will maybe give age.
I am very familiar with Kingston (and it's baptisms.) My Gumms were baptised there.( some buried there too).
Can,t remember what else I had to tell you.
Lola

Hi Lola,
Know what you mean about senior moments, have a few of those myself and its my own research. By the way, I just wanted to say thank you for all the trouble you're taking to help me, its really nice to have someone to toss ideas around with.
John Wallace died the same year, he was buried under the name of Wallace John but I don't know if this was simply a mistake. Harriett did come from Kingston, she was born there on 21/11/1822 (according to the IGI) and buried there on 04/09/1855 age 34, Richard Grose 'in attendance' (where was her husband, I wonder?) I did wonder why she and Richard Thomas married in Lambeth (St John, Waterloo) but when I looked on the 1841 census for that area there were a number of Fielders so perhaps they were family.
Many years ago I went to the LMA and looked up the parish records for St Giles in the Field and nearby parishes but didn't find anything, I probably need to extend the search and make a complete list of any parishes that could be remotely described as St Giles and search them all. I was looking at the original registers for St George, Bloomsbury last night on Ancestry and many of the entries gave the abode as St Giles in the Field so there could be many more. Like you, I'm not convinced that the entry for the Lying in Hospital is the right one, doesn't seem right to me that one of my ancestors could be a 'merchant's clerk' as they've all been labourers or journeymen so far. Also, it doesn't really tie in with the Irish/Bristol theory, does it? On the other hand, Richard Thomas did say his father was a 'gentleman' on his marriage cert but that seems strange when he was a carpenter himself. Perhaps the senior Richard Collins didn't actually exist and Richard Thomas was illegitimate and made it up.
Bye for now,
Gill

Hallo again Gill,
Puzzling isn't it!
Have tried to find a marriage for Richard Grose and Mary Collins sometime between 1829/30 and 1841 but no luck at all.
That might give a clue as to whether Mary was actually a widow at time of marriage to Richard Grose. If she was single then.....
Disregard the theory that gentlemen's sons can't be carpenters etc. I have ag labs and iron workers whose fathers were indeed gentlemen.
Were Harriet's parents John and Elizabeth? We have in our time a gentleman carpenter who is the son of nobility!
I think the place in Pleasant Row Pentonville, where those boys were, was part of the "White Conduit" which was a house that later became a place for apprentices as far as I can make out. It may have been your Richard Collins there... but how can one know for sure? A Harriet Fielder was near but was she yours?
(Once when I was querying the possibility of a certain person being the right one on my tree a very experienced genealogist told me that sometimes one has to use dates/proximity and logic when there is no actual proof.)
In the other 1841 entry for Lambeth the shopman Smith,with whom the two Collins boys were living, later removed to Kingston.
Genuki have map of adjoining parishes including Finsbury St Pauls/Clerkenwell/ St James etc
Have you got death cert for Harriet Collins? Sometimes death certs are useful.
Will keep looking .
Lola