Thread: Lay Family East London. Looking for Concrete Evidence

My Gt Gt Grandfather Frederick John Lay bn 14th Nov 1878 to Charlotte Lay at 101 Bow Common Lane,Poplar. I have not found Charlotte and Frederick on the 1881 and 1891 census. there was a Lay family recorded on the 1881 census at 99 Bow Common Lane,Esther Lay widow with children Frederick 29yrs,Charlotte 19yrs and Martha 17yrs. A few years ago i left a message on a board and was advised that this family was likly to be connected. The availability of the 1911 census and London Parish records has lead me to this. Recorded on the 1911 census with Frederick(Now married) was a Boarder Charlie John Hammond aged 38yrs and married. He is the son of George Edward Hammond and Susan Smart. Their marriage record states the father of Susan as John Lay. Susan Smart was the illigitamate daughter of Esther Smart who married John Lay. The same esther previously mentioned. The parish records state that Charlotte Lay married Albert Piper sept 1879. I have not been able to locate Albert or Charlotte in the following census's hoping that Frederick is recorded with them.(although a Charlotte is recorded with Esther as single on the 1881 census) Frederick has not been found with any other member of this family in the census so By locating Albert and Charlotte I am trying to cement my connection to this line and not rely on the lodgeing with family only.
Any help with this matter greatly appreciated
Thanks

Hi, I can see your difficulty in pinning him down in 1881 and 1891, he's not easy to find, but he has to be somewhere.

1901Plaistow, West Ham. RG13 piece 1577 folio 112 page 19


Frederick Lay 23 Coal Porter, born Bow
Florence Lay 22. Blackwall
Violet Lay 4, Bromley
Frederick Lay 1, Canning Town


I can see Violet in 1911, Frederick Jnr is a little more difficult to definitely pin down, have you established who he was with in 1911? I'll try to get my head round it after dinner, too hungry to think straight right now, but I'll be back.

How certain are you that Charlotte, mother of Frederick John, is the same Charlotte Lay who married Albert Piper? Astoria has posted Albert/Charlotte Piper censuses, and they don't seem to fit. The Albert Piper who married Charlotte Lay in 1879 was a bachelor, so unlikely to be 'your' Charlotte in post 3, and in the other Albert/Charlotte pairing, Charlotte is born in an unlikely area. Like Astoria, I cannot find an Albert and Charlotte who fit with the 1879 marriage.

As an aid to others trying to help, here's the 1879 marriage from the PR. 8/9/1879 at St James the Great.

Albert Piper, full age, bachelor, Plasterer, father Thomas (deceased) to Charlotte Lay, full age, spinster, father John (deceased), both of Bethnal Green. One witness was used by others marrying in the parish, the other was Margaret Adams (could she hold a clue?) have you researched her?

Hello

Recorded on the 1911 census with Frederick(Now married) was a Boarder Charlie John Hammond aged 38yrs

Church of St Saviour Poplar

24 Oct 1897

The marriage entry for this Frederick LAY reads Frederick LAY Bach 19 stoker 25 Lino St Poplar father Frederick LAY Plasterer
Florence Naomi BARTHOLOMEW 18 spinster 25 Lion St Poplar father Robert BARTHOLOMEW dock Lab'r
both parties sign
w: Frederick??
Priscilla Bartholomew

There are 2 trees an Ancestry linked to the LAY family

I'm starting wonder if you have the right birth certificate for Frederick (sorry!), but there's a few anomalies.

I presume you know the 1911 Frederick with wife Florence is definitely your ancestor. I think we need to look at him and go back from there.

1871 census R10 572 6 8

John & (H)Esther nee SMART/ LAY had several children, including a Frederick and Charlotte

Speculatively

Could their daughter Charlotte LAY be the person who married Albert PIPER

Frederick LAY b 1851, could he be the father of Frederick John LAY

Back to the drawing board?

Originally Posted by slizzy

Frederick Jnr is a little more difficult to definitely pin down, have you established who he was with in 1911? I'll try to get my head round it after dinner, too hungry to think straight right now, but I'll be back.
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I said I was too hungry to think straight! I've just looked again for Fred and see him now. Take a look at the 1911 census and how many children Frederick and Florence had, and how many were still alive, I make it one unaccounted for, is this right?

Originally Posted by Elsabels

1871 census R10 572 6 8

John & (H)Esther nee SMART/ LAY had several children, including a Frederick and Charlotte

Speculatively

Could their daughter Charlotte LAY be the person who married Albert PIPER

Hmm! I don't know as she's living at home with Esther in 1881 and entered as 'unmarried' RG11 Piece 499 Folio 19 Page 32