Thread: William Henry Ogden (c.1852-1907)

I am unable to find a birth record for my great grandfather, William Henry Ogden (c.1852-1907) born Manchester, Lancashire. Supposedly the 5th child and 2nd son of David Ogden (1817-), a Paper Hanger, William is one of 8 children, the first 3 being the children of Martha Ogden, nee Heathcote, and David, and the 3 youngest being the children of David and his defacto wife, Mary Street, who were registered with the surname "Street" as David and Mary did not marry until after the birth of the children in 1863.
William named David as his father on his marriage record in 1877 but in view of the fact that the first born in 1840, a boy, was also William Henry who lived to the age of 49 it seems unlikely that the 2nd William is David's son. Is there anybody researching this same family who have managed to solve this question?
I would welcome any information which would enable me to break down this brick wall.
Thanks. Kiwilong.

Firstly let me establish I am not researching this family.

I do agree it is improbable that William born 1852 is David's son, as both Williams' are with David in 1861. Have you considered this birth; details from the Lancashire BMD website? Although registered in Bolton, Bolton is not a million miles from Manchester.

William Street, 1852, Eastern Bolton, mmn STREET.

I presume this is the GRO ref for the birth: William Street, Mar qrt 1852, Bolton, 8c/276

Do you have David and Mary's marriage certificate, and if so who is named as her father?

Hello, Like slizzy I am not researching the family.

1841 H107 569 6 Deansgate Manchester

OGDEN David 24 Paper hanger county YES
OGDEN Martha 22 Silk Winder county NO
OGDEN William 10 m county NO

The only marriage I can find on familysearch to a Martha is Martha Heathcote in 1835 at Eccles Lancashire BUT that would make them 18 and 16 if we use the 1841 census as a benchmark!

1851 H107 2227 562 17 Deansgate

OGDEN David 33 Paper hanger Lamcashire Manc
OGDEN Martha 32 Derbyshire Monyash
OGDEN William 10 London Middlesex
OGDEN Mary Hannah 8 Manchester Lancs
OGDEN Sarah Francis 4 Manchester Lancs

1861 RG 9 2891 88 34Hulme

OGDEN David 43 Paper hanger Lamcashire Manc
OGDEN Mary 32 Manchester Lancs
OGDEN William 20 London nk
OGDEN Sarah 12 Manchester Lancs Children of the marriage of David & Martha OGDEN
OGDEN William 9 Manchester
OGDEN Walter 6 Manchester
OGDEN George 4 Manchester
OGDEN Elizabeth 1

+ sil Sarah STREET

The William OGDEN b 1840 is LONDON!

Having worked my way through, the births are entered under Chorlton Registration District, which is correct for the part of Hulme the family were living in!
Freebmd.org.uk

STREET William Jun 1852 8c 537
STREET Walter Ogden Mar 1855 8c 565
STREET George Valentin Mar 1857 8c 608
STREET Elizabeth Ann Ogden Jun 1859 8c 632

Marriage
Dec 1863
OGDEN David = Mary STREET Chorlton 8c 604

You need the death of Martha OGDEN

Purchase certificate £9.25

Hi Kiwilong,

Please can you say which document gives William the middle name Henry? Is it his marriage cert? Is this your stumbling block, trying to find a birth registered as William Henry? Not all middle names were entered on birth cert's.

Have you tried ordering a birth certificate but got the wrong one. One way to help ensure you get the right cert is to let the GRO do the checking for you, DO NOT enter the GRO ref on the application form, and enter his mother's name. If the GRO cannot find a certificate which fits with year, place, and mother's name entered by you, they will refund your money.

Hello

Lancashirebmd.org.uk

The 1863 marriage took place at St Georges Hulme Manchester and the births were registered in Hulme a sub district of Chorlton

The name William Henry OGDEN apppears on the 1881 census RG11 3925 140 30

elsabels

Thanks for your suggestion regarding William Street, I will investigate same and see what eventuates.
Regards.
Kiwilong.

Hi slizzy.
Sorry for the delay in replying, have been in Australia visiting with our son and family.
Yes, I bought David and Mary's marriage certificate, Oct 28th 1863, and Mary's father was John Street, Fustian Cutter.
Incidentally, David's father was Jonathan Ogden, School Master, who appears in the 1841 census on Tickle Street, Deansgate, probably at the same house as David and Martha.
Cheers.
Kiwilong.

Hi again slizzy.
The christian name "Henry" first appears on the marriage certificate dated Feb 17th 1877, prior to this date, in the 61 and 71 censuses, christian name is William only.
I have had a considerable number of births for both William and William Henry checked by GRO but was looking for a father named David Ogden, all to no avail. This is why I began to wonder about the surname being something other than Ogden, Street being a possibility but again, had a couple checked expexting the father to be David Ogden, again no luck.
I found the 3 youngest quite easily and bought the certs but Mary treated each a little differently, all born at the same address, 43 Dearden Street, Hulme, I.E. Walter Ogden Street, father David Street !! and mother Mary Ogden !!, George Valentine Street, no father specified, and lastly, Elizabeth Ann Ogden Street, again father not specified.
Using the ages specified at marriage and death I figured that the birth must be between 8th sept 1852 and the 16th feb 1853.
Cheers.
Kiwilong.

Hi Elsabels.
Thanks for all your efforts, much appreciated.
I notice that in 1841 you read Martha's occupation as Silk Winder. I had convinced myself that it was Sick Minder but I am sure that you are correct.
I am really interested in the record of a marriage between Martha Heathecote and David Ogden which I feel is probably correct as I bought William Henry's birth certificate, 3rd Aug 1840, which makes him 10 months on census night 1841, and his mother is indeed Martha Heathcote and David is a Paper Stainer.Is there a way to check the happy couples ages in 1835? I have searched for this marriage for ages thinking it was likely to be 1838 or 9 without success. I'm quite excited about this possibility.
Regarding Sarah, there is a Sarah Frances aged 4 in 1851 but she died in 1855 at 43 Dearden Street, Hulme, and then we have a 12 year old Sarah in 1851 census. You have noted the second Sarah as a daughter of Martha, were you able to establish this as a fact. I wondered who her parent's were also but thinking she was the second William's sister.
As you can see in my reply to slizzy, the marriage you mention for David and Mary is correct.
I have had 3 death records checked for Martha but none of the ages sounded right and I thought perhaps her and David had separated and perhaps she died eventually about 1862 or 63 this being the reason for the delayed 1863 marriage.
Thanks again for you efforts on my behalf.
Regards.
Kiwilong.