Thread: Richard Herbert Lyons

Richard Herbert Lyons (aka Herbert Lyon(s))

The family say that he was born 21st Nov 1895 (although the marriage cert states that he was 22 in 1915).

From family "legend" we seem to think that "his family changed their name", which seems to bear out what we have found so far, i.e. that his Father was not a Lyons and this was the name of his stepfather.

Herbert was the Pearly King for Shoreditch for many years (we have yet to check at the London Metroplolitan Archives to see if they have any records) so we think that he was born a Londoner. In fact we know that he was resident in Hoxton (as was his bride to be) in 1915 when he married.

On the marriage certificate his Father is Henry Lyons watchmaker. We have found a Claude & Henry Lyons who had a watchmakers business in Hatton Garden and two other locations.

We do not know Herbert's Mother's name so we are having difficulty tracking her (possible) second marriage (to Henry) but we are now assuming that it would have taken place between 1895 and 1915. There is also mention of a Jewish connection and a number of the Lyons families were of the Jewish faith.

We visited the Hackney archives to go through the electoral rolls for 1910-1918 to see if any of the occupants of the address that he gave on the marriage certficate would give us a clue, but nothing obvious appeared and as women were not registered on some of them we are a bit stuck.

Any help or pointers gratefully accepted.

Regards - Terry

Hello

This is from a google search, you could also try the newspapers!

Mr Herbert (Dick) Lyon, a chimney sweep who was elected Pearly King of Shoreditch in 1925, wore this three-piece wool suit and cap. They were decorated with ... 20thcenturylondon.org.uk

Sadly I cannot get onto the site

Thank you. As you say, the live site isn't there, but I was able to find an archived copy from I think 2008 and the full text is below. We have a photo of the suit that is mentioned which is in the London Museum.

Since posting my original email, we have now found a military service record for him although it only states his regiment (7th Fusiliers) service number and tells us when they went to fight in Europe. We also have obtained a birth certificate for their first child which confirms the Hoxton address in 1916.

Otherwise it is still a bit of a brick wall, so any further help would be gratefully received.

Thanks - Terry

"Mr Herbert (Dick) Lyon, a chimney sweep who was elected Pearly King of Shoreditch in 1925, wore this three-piece wool suit and cap. They were decorated with pearl buttons by his wife. When the Lyons moved to Ongar, the town adopted them. They last wore their costumes there for the celebrations during Queen Elizabeth II's Silver Jubilee in 1977. Some of the buttons on the back of the jacket have been painted to spell out 'GOOD LUCK'. The Pearly tradition originated in London's East End in the 1880s. At the time, pearl buttons were a fashionable way of decorating clothes and accessories for both men and women. Henry Croft, who is regarded as the father of the Pearlies, took this a stage further and appeared at a carnival to raise funds for a local hospital in an outfit smothered in pearl buttons. He made a good collection and, as result, many costermongers and others raising money for charity followed his example and covered their clothes in buttons. This triggered the Pearly tradition and created a custom that survives to the present day."

We also think that the surname Reynolds may be involved, possibly the married name of his Mother in her first marriage. They possibly moved to Billericay in Essex. Basildon is also mentioned, but we think that is possibly another part of the family.

Hello

Have you looked for a newpaper obituary,

Have you found him on the 1911 census ( if so can you post details) or earlier?

elsabels

Good morning Elsabels.

Thanks for the reply.

After Herbert marries (1915) we have a fairly full record of the family including his death. It is the early years that we don't know.

We haven't found him in the 1911 census which makes us think that he was not a Lyon at that stage. We suspect that he lied about his age when joining up in 1916 so in 1911 would probably have been 8-10 years old?

I have looked through the 1911 census and the electoral rolls for residents at the first address that we have for him, but nothing stands out. His Mother may have been living on her own with Herbert but she would not have shown up in the electoral rolls for that time as females did not have the vote at that time.

Hence our frustration...

Thanks again - Terry

Hi Terry

If he was 8 in 1911 - then in 1915, he would be around 12.
If he was 10 in 1911 - then in 1915, he would be around 14.
Surely then, not aged 8-10 in 1911 if he married in 1915?

When he married in 1915, he said he was 22.
When he joined up 1916 (where?) he said he was ?
When he died he was recorded as having a dob of 21 Nov 1895

As Elsabels was wondering, if there was an obituary for him - did it mention anything at all of his earlier life?

Although you have clearly searched high & low, sometimes a 2nd or more pairs of eyes going over the same ground..... hence the questions

• What was his regiment number
• What address do you have him at in 1915?
• Who were the marriage witness' (or have they been eliminated as clues to his ID?)
• What name did he usually use in his daily life, as far as you are aware?
• When elected Pearly King of Shoreditch in 1925, from whom did he succeed the title?
• Henry & Claude LYON(s) the watchmakers - have you identified either on any census?
• You mention the surname Reynolds, the places Billicray & Basildon as possible connections - how did these possibilities arise?

Cheers
Annieb

Thanks Annie, sorry Elsabels, I misunderstood your thinking.

No obituary I am afraid.

Re the marriage age of 22, this is where the puzzles begin. He marries a month or so before joining the Army. We are fairly sure that he lied to join the Army but pretending to be 22 when you are less than 16 seems a bit too far fetched?

We haven't yet found his signup so cannot confirm the story that is within the family.

He was said to be younger than his wife Harriet and she was born in 1898 (we have the birth cert). She said that she was 20 when they married so again a falsification appears to have happened at that time. They married in a registry office and the witnesses are not of a similar age to the bride and groom.

His birthday was celebrated on 21st November but we can't find any births that are similar under any of the possible names that we have tried.

Re his earlier life, we understand from the family memories that they were told that the family name had changed. After the research that we have done, this seems to match with the idea that he was born as one name and if his Mother remarried they became Lyon. The emphasis (for some reason) is that he always said that they were LYON and not LYONS.

Regiment: 5771/18958 7th Fusiliers stationed at Hounslow. He joined up before 9th Jan 1916 when their first child was born.
Address in 1915: More's Buildings, George's Square, Hoxton.
Marriage witnesses: William Evans and Ellen Rayner
Name: He was known as Dick so we have looked for Herbert Richard and Richard, but it does appear to be a nickname?
Henry/Claude : we can find a Watchmaker (and his Uncle/Father) with that name in Covent Garden, but in 1911 he seems to have a wife of another name. So it may have been an affair, but unlikely?
Other places: There are six children still alive from this marriage, and when we mention certsain things to them it triggers some information in response. They all know that there was something to do with a name change, one son then came up with Reynolds, that led to Billericay being mentioned as somewhere that they went to visit the Reynolds. Herbert is meant to have had a half sibling and a sibling, but nobody seems to recall who they were.

Thanks again for the responses - Terry