Thread: George Moncur b c.1832 Scotland

Hi, Can anyone out there help me, George moncur my G G Grandfather was a Police Officer, married Anna Bella b Ireland c1833 they had 3 Children ,2 born in Ireland. He appears on the 1881 census, George died in Liverpool in 1883 - but I cant find trace of his birth - two clues - Firstly 1841 Scotland census showing a George in Dundee - no parents listed, the second shows a George in Fetteresso Kinkardineshire with a Mary Moncur aged 55 "Grandmother" ?



Kind Regards



John Moncur

Hi John,



There is not a George Moncur recorded in the old parish records but that may mean he was either mistranscribed or his birth wasn't registered.



There are 3 marriages around the time he may have married. One was to a Mary Smart in Kinkardinshire, one to Elizabeth Campsie in Perth and the other to Mary Ann McLennan in Arbroath.



None of these seem to match yours so I am wondering if he married in either England or Ireland.

Hi John,



This is kinda complex so will post in bite-sized pieces so that I don’t get lost.



If my musings are correct then your GGGrandfather was born George Guthrie Moncur and is the George with Mary “shop owner” in Barclay Street, Fetteresso Kincardineshire in the 1841 census. I don’t think that she was his Grandmother though – maybe great-aunt!?? - They are living in the same street as George's grandfather who is a postmaster - I'll come back to that further on.



You noted the 1881 Census where George’s birth is given 1832 and I figure you must have found the 1861 Census as you have his 2 children James and Georgina born in Ireland – this has George’s birthdate as 1823 – I think the numbers have simply been “flipped” – but what looks right is that he says that he was born in Stonehaven, Kincardine.



This is the 1871 record which has the family mistranscribed as Monner – George is a Police Officer and they are again living in Kepler Street



1871 Census



Name: George Monner

Age: 39

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832

Relation: Head

Spouse's Name: Anna B

Where born: Scotland

Civil parish: Everton

Ecclesiastical parish: St George

County/Island: Lancashire

Registration district: West Derby

Sub-registration district: ToxtethPark



Household Members:

Name, Age

George Monner, 39

Anna B Monner, 38

James Monner, 15

George H Monner, 4

George Ann Monner, 14 (Transcript error should be Georgina)

Susannah McEsey, 31

So going back to the 1861 census and George’s birthplace of Stonehaven, Kincardine. If you follow this back to the previous census you find



1851 Scotland Census



George Guthrie Moncur

Age: 17

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834

Relationship: Wife's Nephew

Where born: Stonehaven, Kincardineshire

Civil parish: Gorbals

County: Lanarkshire

Address: 56 Abbotsford Place

Occupation: Coach Wheel Maker

Household Members:

Name, Age



Patrick Buchan, 36 B: 1815 Peterhead, Aberdeenshire

* Isabella Buchan, 37 B: 1814 Bervie, Kincardineshire

George Guthrie Moncur, 17

Frances Amelia Guthrie, 12 - wife’s 2nd cousin B: 1839 England

Susanna Campbell, 20 - servant



* Isabella Buchan would therefore, have been George’s mother’s sister With MMN Guthrie – there are 2 records for her on IGI



Isabella Guthrie: Birth: 17 JUN 1812

Father: George Guthrie Mother: Margaret Fowlie

Christening: 18 JUN 1812 Bervie, Kincardine, Scotland



Isabella Guthrie

Event(s)

Christening: 18 Jun 1812 Bervie, Kincardine, Scotland

Death: Nov 1886 Kirktown, Fetteresso, Scotland

Burial: 18 Nov 1886 Kirktown, Fetteresso, Scotland



Parents

Father: Captain George Guthrie

Mother: Margaret Fowlie

George Guthrie and Margaret Fowlie have 12 children that I have been able to trace but the main one of interest is their 2nd child who I believe to be your GG Grandfather George’s mother



IGI has the following:-



Margaret Guthrie

Birth: 11 April 1807

Christening: 28 May 1807, Bervie, Kincardine, Scotland



Margaret Guthrie and James Moncur Marriage on 12 OCT 1828 Fetteresso, Kincardine, Scotland



There are also IGI records for Margaret’s parent’s



Captain George Guthrie

Birth: abt 1775 , , Scotland

Death: 1 Dec 1860 Kirktown, Fetteresso, Scotland

Marriage: 17 May 1805 Monquhitter, Aberdeen, Scotland – there is another IGI entry for this marriage – 17 May 1805 Bervie, Kincardine, Scotland



Margaret Fowlie

Event(s) Birth: abt 1781 , Scotland

Death: 2 Dec 1864 Kirktown, Fetteresso, Scotland

Burial: 5 Dec 1864 Kirktown, Fetteresso, Scotland





I just Googled Capt George Guthrie and an auction lot from a 2007 sale came up



Georgian silver snuff box,

engraved 'This Gift of the Discountess Dowager Arbuthnot to Capt George Guthrie in 1806, is presented by him to his son in law, Pat K Buchan, 17th June 1845', London marks - Sold for £420



Which fits in very nicely with the 1851 census record where we had George living with Margaret’s brother-in-law, Patrick Buchan

So back to the 1841 Census where George is living in Barclay Street, Fetteresso and you find his grandparents in the same street



1841 Census



George Guthrie

Age: 65

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1776

Where born: Scotland

Civil parish: Fetteresso

County: Kincardineshire

Address: Barclay Street

Occupation: Postmaster

Household Members:



Name, Age

George Guthrie, 65

Margaret Fowlie, 55

Agnes Guthrie, 30

Jane Guthrie, 15



And then on a military pension in



1851 Census



George Guthrie

Age: 74

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1777

Relationship: Head

Spouse's Name: Margaret

Gender: Male

Where born: Monquhitter, Aberdeen

Civil parish: Fetteresso

Town: StonehavenCounty: Kincardineshire

Address: Evan Street

Occupation: Annuitant Half Pay Head Militead

Household Members:



Name, Age

George Guthrie, 74

Margaret Guthrie, 67

Agnes Guthrie, 45

Catherine Addison, 15





You can order a record relating to Cpt George Guthrie



http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-1372058&CATLN=7&accessmethod=5

And finally, the marriage of your GG Grandfather George and Anna Bella



In the Irish Civil Registration Indexes 1845-1958



Name: George Guthrie Moncur

Registration district: Manorhamilton

Record type: MARRIAGES

Registration date - quarter and year: 1855

Film number: 101245

Volume: 8

Page: 57

Digital GS number: 4195891

Image number: 00425



Name: Anna Bella Palmer

Registration district: Manorhamilton

Record type: MARRIAGES

Registration date - quarter and year: 1855

Film number: 101245

Volume: 8

Page: 57

Digital GS number: 4195891

Image number: 00439

[quote name='john_moncur']Hi, Can anyone out there help me, George moncur my G G Grandfather was a Police Officer, married Anna Bella b Ireland c1833 they had 3 Children ,2 born in Ireland. He appears on the 1881 census, George died in Liverpool in 1883 - but I cant find trace of his birth - two clues - Firstly 1841 Scotland census showing a George in Dundee - no parents listed, the second shows a George in Fetteresso Kinkardineshire with a Mary Moncur aged 55 "Grandmother" ?



Kind Regards



John Moncur[/quote]



Hi Geniegenie,



You have lost me. Did you find the birth ?

[quote name='john_moncur']but I cant find trace of his birth - two clues - Firstly 1841 Scotland census showing a George in Dundee - no parents listed, the second shows a George in Fetteresso Kinkardineshire with a Mary Moncur aged 55 "Grandmother" ? John Moncur[/quote]



Hi Starlight,



Sadly after all that no, as I don’t have access to Scottish BMD and could not find it on IGI



But what the above does show is that George Moncur’s birth parents were Margaret Guthrie and James Moncur, who married 1828 Fetteresso, Kincardine, Scotland and that his maternal grandparents were Cpt George Guthrie and Margaret Fowlie.



Also that John’s GGGrandfather is the one that he had found in 1841 living with Mary in Fetteresso, Kinkardineshire and that he married Anna Bella in Ireland 1855.



So, still looking for a birth record of a George Guthrie Moncur B: c1832 probably in Kinkardineshire – Dad: James – Mum: Margaret Guthrie.

To Starlight & GenieGenie,



Many, Many thanks for your hard work in tracing back some of my obscure amcestrey !!! your assistance is wonderful.



Thank you again



Kindest Regards



John Moncur